In Conversation: Jamie Chung & Nichelle Hines

“She’s been this steady rock in all of my milestones,” actress Jamie Chung says of her longtime friend Nichelle Hines. “Like meeting my partner, getting married, and some of my biggest jobs.”

The women, both from San Francisco, didn’t meet until years later as twenty-somethings in Los Angeles. Hines is a celebrity fitness coach in addition to being an NYU-trained actress, whose credits include Zach Braff’s 2023 film “A Good Person” with Florence Pugh. While Hines was teaching at Cycle House, she and Chung became close.

“I remember taking one spin class with Nichelle,” Chung reflects, seated on a couch inside Hines’s West Hollywood home. “She lit something in me that I never thought existed. She became my personal guru.”

Hines is also close with Chung’s husband, Bryan Greenberg, who is often, lovingly, the third wheel in their friendship.

“You and Bryan being happy is as important to me as [me] being happy with someone,” Hines says. “So, if you and Bryan happen to have a disagreement, it’s important to me [to know] if there's any way that I can help solve it. Because we're in this together.”

That philosophy also extends to Chung’s twin sons, whom she had in 2021. “Your children feeling taken care of is also important to me,” adds Hines, acknowledging it takes a village. “We’re not doing this thing without the whole crew being involved.”

Chung is best known for roles in “Dexter,” “Lovecraft Country,” “Big Hero 6,” “The Hangover Part II,” and “Once Upon a Time.” She’s also a tastemaker who often appears front row at fashion shows for Monse, Pamella Rolland, and Simkhai. Hines, too, is a frequent face at fashion, beauty, and wellness events. She chronicles her adventures—which recently included a trip to Japan with friend Eiza Gonzalez for a Loewe exhibit—on Instagram.

But the women’s friendship goes much deeper than what you see on social media. Chung and Hines have been there for one another through the highs and lows of life, work, motherhood, and much more. Here, they reflect on being part of one another’s journeys. Read on.

Jamie Chung: Nichelle, how did we meet? We've got two different versions of this story.

Nichelle Hines: Mine is the truth, though. Just so we're clear. I was teaching cycling classes at Equinox.

JC: Before you partnered with Cycle House?

NH: Yes, so basically at the end of 2008, the strike happened.

JC: She remembers all the years because I don’t.

NH: I fell into teaching cycling by accident.

JC: Okay, let me just start. Okay, it's my version now.

NH: No, no, go ahead. Back to your version.

JC: I remember I was feeling… I was just starting out acting. She’d just graduated from NYU grad school. And she was doing her thing in L.A., and I remember I was trying to find my confidence and trying to find my groove quite literally. I remember taking one spin class with Nichelle. She literally lit something in me that I never thought existed. She became my personal guru. I remember taking her class and feeling so good and feeling so confident. I continued to take her class and started to stalk her. I asked her on a friend date.

NH: She did.

JC: Then she became a partner at CycleHouse, and so I followed her there.  She was also doing a one-woman show in Los Angeles.

NH: It was two [of us].

JC: No, it was just you, babe.

NH: No, it was two of us.

JC: I’m sorry. God. I don't remember the other person. I remember being blown away by her presence on stage, and I've never done anything on stage.  She became a really great inspiration. We’ve been friends since—

NH: 2008, 2009.

JC: How many years is that?

NH: That’s 15–almost 16 years.

JC: She’s been this steady rock in all of my milestones—like meeting my partner, getting married, and some of my biggest jobs. I actually read with Nichelle, and then she got me Lovecraft.

NH: That's actually a really great story.

JC: She’s been a staple, and she's been my cheerleader and also my marriage counselor. She's been a really good friend.

NH: First of all, thank you. Super sweet. I don't get that so often. No, but it was great because I was teaching and life was really changing for me. I was figuring everything out, and I'll never forget… After class one day, she came up to me. I was like, ‘Oh, she's so cute that girl,’ and we would chat. Typical J—she was like, ‘Hey man, do you want to go see a movie with me?’

JC: I think it was dude.

NH: It was dude—she called me dude. I was like, ‘Actually, yes,’ which was so weird. I always admired her for that because I think that it’s hard to make friends. Especially when you're out of college. Usually, you're in a class with someone, and you see a girl, and you’re like, ‘Oh, you're cute. Your shoes are cute,’ and you become friends. I found that to be really bold. When another woman comes up to you and is like, ‘Hey, I'd like to get to know you.’ I just thought that it was one of the coolest things ever. I think that friendships have to be fought for, and I think that the tone was set pretty much immediately. Our relationship was one that we were deeply invested in and that we wanted. People always say, ‘Old friends are the best friends.’ We're old friends, but we were mature when we became friends. When you're a child, you’re just friends with your neighbor or you’re just friends with someone in your class. I think that those relationships that you can establish later actually have meaning because you're a grown-up, educated person, and you know who you are and what you want. Those friendships tend not to drift apart as they do in college and high school.

JC: Actually, I've got a lot of friends in high school and college, and I met Nichelle with one of my college friends who was my roommate at the time. I just love being surrounded by really strong women.

NH: I've had this conversation a lot lately—of how lucky I feel with the friendships that I have. They feel authentic, and they feel genuine, and I didn't realize until probably a few years ago what a freaking relief that is. It's hard to explain.

JC: Especially during COVID. And there were all these other strikes, and then having children, and then the fires.

NH: Having children was huge for you.

JC: I don't like asking for help, but just knowing that I didn’t need to ask for help because [my friends] knew how to help me in ways that I didn't think that I needed. It made me realize how important having that support group is. Like you said, you look around and you realize, ‘Wow, I'm so lucky.’ And I really am. We are really blessed.

NH: Yeah. Don’t cry.

JC: Every time I talk about… Because it's 2025, we're in May. But it's been such a hard year. The best thing about Nichelle’s house? She’s got everything. Let me grab a tissue.

NH: See, you give me so much drama for the clutter. But look at that.

JC: What clutter? Your house is perfect.

NH: Oh wow, she's really behaving today, guys—when the camera's on. But I will say this… When we first met… And I felt like our friendship really grew.

JC: Oh, yeah. It was a real progression.

NH: I remember with Cycle House, you were so supportive, and that was such a big thing for me. But one of the things that I remember… We’re all over the place, but one of the things I remember that's really huge to me and our friendship… Well, there are a couple of things. We were becoming better and better friends, and Bryan and Jamie were getting married. She had a whole bachelorette party. It was all of her high school friends and her college friends, but people she had known for a long time, and that was totally fine [that I wasn’t invited]. I knew I was invited to the wedding. And I don't know if I've ever really had the chance to say this to you—

JC: No, I’m really nervous now.

NH: But your level of vulnerability has taught me so much because I think I've always had to be in charge—in terms of running a business and doing all these things—but your level of vulnerability with me has allowed me to become more vulnerable. Because I think a lot of people will say for me—I'm very nice on the surface, and I work hard to try to treat everyone with kindness, but in terms of people truly having the opportunity to get to know me, which has as much to do with me, of being open and allowing people to get to know you… That’s the lesson I’ve learned from you.

JC: Thank you.

NH: I'm really grateful, and that's what I was going to say. I remember with your wedding, you were like, ‘Hey, I have all these bridesmaids, but it was incomplete,’ and you asked me to emcee your wedding[‘s Halloween party during the weekend festivities].

JC: Yeah, I did. I sure did.

NH: She asked me to emcee—ten years ago this Halloween.

JC: Yeah, it's been ten years.

NH: It was so sweet. It’s so great when that connection [is strong], which is so hard—again about the vulnerability. To validate those friendships. You feel weird, like, ‘Are you my friend?’ But we have these moments.

JC: You are my friend.

NH: Her husband and I are very close.

JC: They’re just the same person.

NH: It's great though, because I have my relationship with Jamie, I have a relationship with Brian, and I have my relationship with Jamie and Brian. But my favorite is when she's like, ‘Who do you like more?’ And Brian would be like, ‘It’s me.’ But it's great to have these moments and these friendships where you can be vulnerable. Sometimes you do want to know, ‘Do you love me?’ And we can say that to each other, and that is huge.

FOR BETTER, FOR WORSE

NH: During the pandemic, I had a front-facing business. My business was over when COVID hit.

JC: That was hard.

NH: It was March 15th. I taught a class that Sunday morning, and we were never in that room together again. And it came at such a weird time. But it was a great time because I didn't know where I wanted my life to go, but I didn't know if this was where I wanted to stay. And then the decision got made for me, and I always say, ‘Life leaves you breadcrumbs, and you just have to follow the yellow brick road of your life.’ But mixed with that—of course—was instant fear. I hadn't set myself up for this. We were supposed to be opening all these other studios. So many other things were supposed to happen. But at the same time, I was feeling a real sense of longing to dive into acting again. But [I felt] fear. I was afraid. I'm a woman. I'm black. I'm not a toothpick. How old am I? I'm 40.

{They laugh.}

NH: What do I do? Shut up. It's true.

JC: You are 40.

NH: No, when that happened.

JC: Oh, got you. Yes, you were 40.

NH: Wow. See, I told you you're going to ruin it. We were doing so [well]. I didn't say I was 40 today.

JC: Okay, sorry, sorry, sorry.

NH: 40—What was that? Last year? So when that happened, there was an immense sense of relief and an immense sense of fear. You always think, ‘There are these great moments.’ But even when you get the role of your dreams, you're still scared. So I was like, ‘This is really scary because not only is my business over for the foreseeable future. Maybe a month? Maybe three months?’ But very quickly within that first week, we knew it was going to be a minimum of three to six months. But I also knew in that time that that was no longer for me, and it’s really hard to stand up for what you want and what you believe and what you want inside your heart. I will never forget. I get a FaceTime, and it's Jamie, and she's looking very serious. She's like, ‘We need to talk.’ She didn't have kids at the time. So I was like, ‘What could possibly [be wrong]?’ She was like, ‘Brian's here.’ They were like, ‘Do you need any money?’ And I was like, ‘What?’

JC: But your business was shut down.

NH: Knowing that my job literally ceased to exist. It wasn't even like the restaurants where you could serve [through Postmates]. This was before Zoom. And to have friends like that? That when these things happen—as much as they're worried and concerned about themselves—say, ‘These are the people—I want to make sure that they're okay.’ It was very sweet. The answer was no after multiple times of asking.

JC: No, but you did let me help the staff.

NH: I did let her help my staff. But I was like, ‘You’re not giving me any money. But if you want to make a donation to the Cycle House staff, that’s great.’ But to have friends like that? I haven't felt [that before]. To have that kind of care outside of your family? I don't know if there are a lot of people in the world [like that] where I feel like I can get that care. I'm grateful that you're one of those people that I can get that care from, sister. And your dog doesn't like anybody.

JC: Stop making faces. It’s making me really uncomfortable. Oh, honey. There are so many times [she’s been there for me]. It’s skewed. When my friends do things for me to support me, I know that I don't need to give anything in return. But I always feel like the friendships are always imbalanced. Because I can't always be the one [who's] taking. And now that they showed me how to support [myself] in ways that I never thought I needed, I'm always trying to figure out ways I can show that same support. I've learned from them [to ask myself], ‘What do they need? How can I support them in different ways?’ It's never just monetary. It’s showing up, holding my baby when I'm having a mental breakdown, so I can take a shower. Talking me off a ledge. Talking some sense into my husband. It’s coming to the house and hanging out with me when they know that I can't go out because I don't have a sitter. Or helping me with this audition that—

NH: Like Lovecraft Country.

JC: I was so nervous. I was like, ‘I don't know if I want to do this. I have to do Korean.’ And Nichelle was like, ‘Forget it. It's the language of what this person's going through. No matter what language, it's still transcends.’ She really helped me work through those [feelings and fears].

NH: She literally did not want to go to the audition, and she came over. She had it. I was like, ‘No, no. You don’t get to say [no to yourself].’ And the whole ‘’enough’ [thing]—sometimes we don’t feel skinny enough. Or pretty enough.

JC: Or Korean enough.

NH: She didn’t feel Korean enough. First of all, you are Korean. We all have experiences, and there are always ways to translate [those experiences]. But sometimes you just need that friend to open the door. It was so funny because we got her [ready] for the audition, and we had to go on a trip two weeks later.

JC: I was sitting on that dining room table.

NH: Crying.

JC: Yeah.

NH: [You] had the callback audition while we happened to be in Miami. On vacation for a [different] gig together. So the universe literally set her up. Because the callback's almost worse than the audition.

JC: Oh, hell yeah.

NH: You’re like, ‘Now I'm in the running? I'm really gonna mess it up.’ So it was the universe putting us in this place to be able to work together and to have that [bonding] experience. Imagine if I hadn't gone on that trip.

JC: She was helping me [prepare for the callback] on that trip as well.

NH: We were lying on the beach.

JC: It was the best way to prep for a callback. She's really been there for all my milestones.  And I think the most important one [has been motherhood]. She doesn't have kids, but she [knows] how to help. Now that my friends are having kids, I'm like, ‘Okay. Let me hold the baby. I got you. You want your arms to yourself, so you can actually eat? Give me the baby. I know the baby likes me.’ You know what I mean? Or playing with the kids or bonding with them.

VULNERABILITY & HONESTY

JC: I remember the only time Nichelle was really vulnerable with me... Am I allowed to share this?

NH: I don’t know, what are you going to share?

JC: She really needed a push and a little pep talk. When the universe hit you with COVID and everything, [you’d said], ‘I don't know, it's so hard to get back.’ And I was like, ‘Dude, you got this. It's in you. I saw you on stage. You were amazing. You went to NYU grad. You are so talented.’ When we break down scripts, you and Bryan see immediately what's in the scene, how to break down these characters, and how to bring new takes out of you. You’ve just got it. I just think she needed that little push—like a baby bird out of the nest.

NH: Yeah. And I got a job within four months, and I moved to Florida.

JC: And she booked one of the biggest gigs, and then it kept rolling after that. But this is a business that can inflict a lot of self-doubt with a lot of rejections. You really have to love it. We're all in a place where we don’t even care if we get the job. We really just love it. Because we get to work with our friends, we get to break it down. We use a different creative part of our brains. I still love it. I appreciate it.

NH: I remember I had a job. I went to an audition, and I was so juiced. You’re right. You get to the point when it truly is about the art. That you don't care if you get it or not. I remember when I auditioned for [The] Morning Show. I was like, ‘I did everything that I could possibly do.’ What did I do? I went to your house and was like, ‘Let’s have a glass of wine.’

JC: And then you got it.

NH: And then I got it. You want to share those moments. When I want to share these moments, it’s always [with] Jamie. I remember we were out to dinner with a new friend who shall remain nameless. We were talking about friends, and she was saying, ‘Nichelle, you think you've got her, but there are layers. That is an onion. She'll give you the presentation.’

JC: It takes a lot to get the real side of you.

NH: The real me.

JC: Or just to show the real crazy.

{They laugh.}

NH: Right, both of those.

JC: And there's a tight-knit group of friends [who] have seen me spiral or spinning out, and they're always talking me off the ledge. It's great for my mental health, and they really [are there for me]. Nichelle included.

NH: Listen. Forever, baby. But that was the thing… We were with a friend who was really happy to be a new friend. He was saying, ‘I'm one of your best friends.’ And I was like, ‘You’re not.’

JC: Wow. That’s really awkward.

NH: I didn't want to lie.

JC: You’re number eight.

NH: I said, ‘There’s tier two. But tier one is only four people.’

JC: No, I think there's ten.

NH: In tier one? Absolutely not. Four. There are four people that I can name off the top of my head. There’s maybe a friend from college who doesn't live here [whom] I might include in that. But in terms of right here, there are four people.

JC: Aw. I’m so honored.

NH: You don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings, but I think as you get older, you get more honest.

TRAUMA DUMPING

NH: With Jamie at parties constantly, constantly, I’ll be walking by [and overhearing her conversation], and I'm like, ‘Why are you talking about this? You just met this person.’

JC: I know.

NH: Sometimes I’m like, ‘Jamie’s got to go to the bathroom.’

JC: It's kind of a semi-trauma dump. That’s how I bond with people. Not about my father. Not that deep. It's mostly just like, ‘Marriage is hard. It's tough.’

NH: So I’ll walk by when we’re out at a party. And she's talking about how tough her life is. She'll be like, ‘No, this person's great. This is Deborah.’ And the girl is like, ‘I’m Elizabeth.’

JC: I only did that… a hundred times. Yeah. I think it's because Korean was my first language. That’s what it is.

NH: That's not what it is. I think you have that thing… There’s that syndrome where you have recognition, but the name doesn’t [stick]. There’s a term for it.

JC: It’s dyslexia, but for names? I do that sometimes. A lot.

NH: A lot of the time. I’ll walk up, and she's like, ‘Hey, this is Stephanie,’ and the girl's like, ‘I’m Deborah.’

JC: Sometimes it’s close. Sometimes it's Sarah. It's close.

NH: I try to tell people: ‘I don't even know she knows my name.’

JC: I always make an effort to say the name and want to make people feel included. And then I just burn it all down. Because I'm so confident. … My therapist is like… Because we get into it, but they're like, ‘It's forgiven.’ I think there's no time these days to sugarcoat anything. We're very direct with each other.

NH: You’ll definitely call me. Something happened, and you were like, 'I feel like sometimes you’re supporting Bryan more than you support me.’

JC: I don't know if it was that.

NH: It was something like that.

JC: It actually was that. We won’t talk about the subject matter. But I was right.

NH: I said, ‘I hear what you're saying, and this is why I said it.’ But we can have a real conversation. But you know what's great? It's never a fight. We’ve never had a fight.

JC: They are disagreements. It's better to have disagreements than full-blown fights. We’ve had a couple of disagreements. A disagreement is, ‘It really hurts my feelings that you supported him in this, and when you know that it's doing this to me.’

NH: I was like, ‘I didn't think about it that way, and I apologize.’

JC: Because you guys are the same person. Sometimes you guys don't think. I'm sorry.

NH: But that's not a disagreement. That’s a conversation.

JC: A regular conflict or disagreement is fine.

NH: We’ve never had prolonged weirdness. It's always take care of each other first. We have this deep, bickering relationship. People are like, ‘You guys are like sisters. You bicker.’ We’re like, ‘We’re actually not bickering at all.’ We’re completely joking.

JC: That’s our humor.

NH: Because I don’t have a sister. You’re the closest thing I have to a sister.

JC: I only have sisters. So I know how to fight with sisters. I mean, I have disagreements with my sisters.

NH: I have brothers, and I'm in the middle, and I'm a black woman. So they pretty much do what I say. Your sisters are great, though.

JC: Oh, I love my sisters. All my sisters are great. And my sister married Anne. So I have a sister-in-law. I'm surrounded [by amazing women]. And Christina. And all my cousins. I always surround myself [with strong women]. I don't trust the ones who are like, ‘I don't have a lot of girlfriends.’ I’m like, ‘That's telling.’ Because your community [should be] your women, your sisters, your chosen sisters, and blood sisters. When it comes to survival, who do you lean on the most? It's the women in your community.

NH: I have both.

JC: Mine are all women. And my husband.

NH: Yeah, but your husband is one of mine.

JC: But he, also, is willing to listen, which I really love, and that’s something that I'm learning from him.

NH: Yes, and those kids.

MOTHERHOOD — IT TAKES A VILLAGE

JC: I love our kids. They're great.

NH: Our kids.

JC: Yeah, I said our.

NH: My crowning joy. I had two days by myself with them.

JC: When we were in a jam… My parents are older, and Bryan’s parents are in St. Louis. There was no one else that we could have called on. I asked my sisters. They were out of town. I asked other people, and I didn't want to ask Nichelle.

NH: I happened to be at your house.

JC: She was like, ‘I’ll do it.’ I was like, ‘No, I don't feel right asking you. That's a big responsibility.’ I wouldn't want to do that on my own, and she would be by herself. She was like, ‘I'll do it.’

NH: We had fun.

JC: I know. You were great. But to put that on someone else gives me a lot of anxiety.

NH: I know, but honestly, I was proud of myself. It had nothing to do with doing this thing for you. I was like, ‘I can do that.’

JC: They had a great time. I didn't FaceTime my kids. I FaceTimed Nichelle [to ask], ‘Are you okay? Do you need anything?’

NH: The biggest thing is… Children need so many things.

JC: I know. They’ll tell you now. They’re old enough.

NH: They were two at the time. They were talking. It’s very scary dropping them off at school and [strategizing], ‘Okay, so one's in the car,’ and then one came out. Logistically, one is [fine], but two of them [are harder to wrangle]. You're like, ‘Wait, what if one runs while I'm trying to get the other one?’ It was like, ‘Don’t fuck this up.’

JC: This is what our brains go through every day. Also, as women, [we’re] always the ones figuring out the logistics. Men are just like, ‘Ah, we will figure it out.’ I'm like, ‘No, we have to have a plan, you know?’

NH: And for me, as a non-planner, I have never planned something more in my life. But it’s the yin and yang of it all. I was a planner that weekend. I was like, ‘I'm gonna take this one out and put this one here.’ We made it a game to get the other one out of there.

JC: You can never take your eye off [them].

NH: And then when you’re driving and they want a snack? And then they start screaming if you don’t have a snack.

JC: Oh, honey.

NH: How do you get the snack without crashing the car, and you’re on the freeway, and they’re screaming?

JC: Well, I did. It wasn't a freeway. I crashed into a construction dumpster with no reception in Lake Hollywood.

NH: That’s right. Screaming, crying.

JC: Yeah, and I was freaking out because my husband was out of town. We called Nichelle. We called Ashley [Madekwe]. We called Iddo [Goldberg]. But I was giving them the wrong address, and they couldn't find me, and I couldn't call. That was probably one of the most stressful moments of my life. That's why I learned. Now we have car rules. So, whenever we get in the car, I tell my kids, ‘Okay, these are the car rules. Inside voices. No distractions. Mommy’s driving. We’ve got to keep you safe.’ Now I [know]—you don't ever grab back because that's how [it happened]. I was only going 10 miles per hour. It's a Tesla. So, of course, it crashed. It's totaled if you bump it.

NH: You know, that was a gift from the universe. You got rid of that before the shit hit the fan.

JC: Also, I hated that card. You know I did. From day one. Anyways. You learn a lot. You learn as you go.

NH: Yeah, you do. When anything happens—from the children to Bryan to any of those things—because when you enter into a real friendship… Your lives [matter to me, too]. You and Bryan being happy is [almost] as important to me as [me] being happy with someone. Your children feeling taken care of [is also important to me. There are levels of friendship. When you're young, you think [differently].

JC: You want to make sure everyone is happy.

NH: It's about investment. We're all in this together. So, if you and Bryan happen to have a disagreement, it’s important to me [to know] if there's any way that I can help solve it. Because we're in this together. We’re not doing this thing without the whole crew being involved.

JC: That's really beautiful.

NH: My favorite was when you were out in town, Bryan was like, ‘I could really use some help.’ Literally, my phone rings 10 seconds later. It’s Jamie on FaceTime. She goes, ‘Do not go over there. Bryan does not need any help.’ I was like, ‘How did you know?’

JC: I wanted him to have that experience. So that he can appreciate what I did [for] him while he filmed this movie [during] the five months that he was away shooting two different shows. I'm really proud of him. But I just needed the validation of, ‘God, it is hard, Jamie. Yeah, you're right. Going to work is a vacation because I don't have to think about what the kids need.’ He knows what’s up now.

NH: He’s getting better.

JC: It’s so hard.

BATTLE OF THE SEXES

NH: The more that I read and the more women I talk to… It’s simply the difference [between] the sexes. He'll never have [your] experience. Because here's the truth—even when you were gone…

JC: But he could try.

NH: He goes, ‘It was fun, it was great, I was fine.’ But they don't do it the way that you do it. They’re not thinking about it, and that won't change. That is masculinity versus femininity.

JC: That's why I lean more towards women, because we're always the ones figuring shit out. It's always the women.

NH: But I'm just saying, the sooner you can understand, ‘He'll never get it. He won't ever, ever, ever, ever get it.’

JC: I just want him to have a day, a taste of what I [experience], you know what I mean?

NH: He still won't feel it. He still won't feel it because he's a man. So he's just not going to feel it in that way.

JC: See, sometimes when you say that, it feels like you’re defending him.

NH: I'm actually defending you. I'm trying to release you from that feeling.

JC: No, I get it.

NH: It feels like that friend… when they go back to that guy again. You're like, ‘Don’t do that.’ You’re like, ‘They’re never going to get it… until they get it.’ But no, I’m not defending him at all. I'm saying the gender [lends] itself to selfishness.

JC: That's why I love women.

NH: I don’t want to say [it’s] narcissism. It's a me-me-me sort of mentality.

JC: You’re right. It’s a little bit more of an ego. I think that is the battle.

NH: Whereas women, we think about the whole, right? Yeah, if all the friends are coming over, if Bryan has everyone over for the Knicks game...

JC: I’m the one—

NH: Everyone’s coming over. Do you have food? He's like, ‘Nah, I’m sure they'll eat before.’ Whereas a woman is like, ‘Yo. You just invited a bunch of people over to your house.’

JC: At dinner time.

NH: At six o’clock. Like, what did you think? I'm saying the programming is totally different [for men].

JC: That's why I love women, and women supporting women means a lot more than having support from the other gender.

NH: Like you supporting me at Beyonce on Friday? She's got a big weekend. She's a little scared. It's gonna be great. I'm gonna help on Saturday. Is Bryan here on Saturday?

JC: We have the Gold Gala on Saturday.

NH: Is Bryan going?

JC: Yeah, he's an ally.

NH: But on Friday, he’s staying home.

JC: He’s trying to make me get a babysitter, so he can go out too.

NH: Where’s he going?

JC: Two hungover people on a Saturday? I won't drink on Friday.

GROWING UP

JC: My own childhood—let’s talk about that. I had a father who was very selfish. He’s a very selfish person and took zero accountability for his actions and always felt a bit entitled. I think culturally, that's a thing, too. Like, ‘I’m the eldest man,’ of his family. It just comes with some entitlement without actually working for it. And taking from relationships, literally, but not giving. And so I learned a lot of what I didn’t want as a child. And men became very untrustworthy to me. I hate generalizing it because I met a great person, but he's quite the opposite of my father. But I had a mom, and all the women in my family, all the aunties were the anchors. My mom made sure… She never abandoned us, first of all. She worked tirelessly to make things happen after my father sent us into bankruptcy. I’ve learned a lot of my work ethic from her, but she was never around as a mother because she was always working. So, I was quite the independent child, even though I was the youngest. For Lowell, you got to... [Nichelle] is from San Francisco as well, but she went to St. Ignatius [College Preparatory School].

NH: But we never met until here.

JC: Basically, she went to the nice private school in San Francisco.

NH: One of the best. And you went to the best public school.

JC: It's a magnet school, but you’ve still got to apply.

NH: I got into Lowell.

JC: Yeah, I know you did. I'm sure you did, but you decided to pay for your school. So I had to apply. I didn't really have any guidance. I loved the things that I loved. So, I did sports. I kind of loved academics, but not really. I got myself in, and I think the best thing was my mom telling my older sister, privately, not to me… [She] was like, ‘I'm really proud of how she turned out, considering I was never really there.’ I think the thing I'm learning from my kids is how to be there and how to give guidance. Because my mom did a great job with me in terms of work ethic.

NH: And showing up, being fed, being clean, and doing all those things, but affection and love—

JC: Affection and love, that's the thing that I'm learning from my kids. And having to over-explain things, especially at this toddler age…. Because my parents speak Korean, there were a lot of language barriers. So we kept a lot of things to ourselves, but being able to [practice] conflict resolution in front of the kids, giving them the tools to problem solve, how to do imaginative play [with] a little guidance, and not being totally hands-off. That’s the difference. Because I had a hands-off childhood. What about you?

NH: It's funny, and it's probably a big part of the reason why we're friends. It's somewhat similar in a lot of ways.

JC: They just expect you to get it.

NH: I think being from minority families and minority culture in a place like San Francisco, where… If you are a minority and you're living in a city like San Francisco, you probably come from a lineage of fighters who wanted things. But also within that culture being a minority… It doesn't matter if you're Korean, or black, or whatever that is… Sometimes that loving disconnect can happen, and it's not anybody's intention.

JC: It’s tough love.

NH: It’s tough love. ‘Hey, the bills are paid. Your clothes are clean.’

JC: ‘What are you complaining about?’

NH: Yeah. It’s not that our parents didn't love us. Because, obviously, now I'm at the point… I forced my parents when I was in college… Now we end every conversation with ‘I love you.’ That was not the case when I was a child. You got things done. And, you know, culturally, as black people, we didn’t [have the same experiences]. A great example is: my parents didn't travel. I used my passport before my parents did. Because when you're a minority, you buy a house. You send your kids to a nice school. You do all of these things. So, affection, culture, all of these things were not something that was focused on. Growing up, I was the only girl, and my mother is a strong personality.

JC: I love her.

NH: When [my mom] was 17 years old, they were hiring girls to be operators at Pacific Bell. By the time my mom retired, she was an executive VP talking to the owner of AT&T. She was getting things done, but [I didn’t realize being an artist was an option]. I'm going to cry because I was born with an artist's heart. I was born an artist, but I didn't know [I could be one]. I was like, ‘Why do I feel so weird?’ I felt so weird because everybody was working [around me]. I got good grades.

JC: I was very smart.

NH: I would sit in my room and just read books. But now knowing that I'm an artist — it was this escape, right? It was me wanting to be a part of other worlds, me wanting to deal with emotion, but not feeling like I could deal with emotion. But when you're young, you have no idea. I felt like an alien. I felt like a Martian. But I was lucky in the Martianness where I was like, ‘But this is me.’ I wasn't ashamed of it. My mom would always say, ‘The girl you see now is the same girl.’ I kept my own counsel, and I was never ashamed of it. But it was confusing because [I felt] like, ‘I’m weird.’ But it was weird because I was the cool weird, so people still liked me. I wasn’t the weird where nobody is your friend.

JC: Weird is cool. All weird is cool.

NH: Right, but you know when you’re kids.

JC: Yeah, yeah.

NH: I was the weird where it’s like, ‘She’s weird, I like her.’ Not the, ‘She's weird, don't talk to her.’ An artist's job is to show ourselves to each other, right? Through writing, acting, dancing, and painting, we show emotion. We help the world become more emotional. But because of my life and having to get things done and being the only girl and all of these things, I just didn't [recognize] what was going on. I was lucky to have a dad who loved movies. He always took us to the movies. Ghostbusters was a sleeper hit. But I remember being a little kid and my dad was like, ‘You guys are going to go see Ghostbusters.’ We were like, ‘We don’t want to see this dorky movie. I had an older brother. He was 10 or something. He was like, ‘I don’t want to see this dorky movie.’ And we loved it.

JC: It’s the best.

NH: It was a thing. Because my dad would read the paper. I think my dad, in another life, maybe would have been some sort of artist as well. Maybe music or something like that. But for me growing up, I spent a lot of time alone in my room. I was like the jester, the sad clown in a sense. When I was out in my life, I was open and out, which is me even now. And then when I was alone, it was books. I didn't have a TV in my room. I didn't have a radio. I read books, but I was a little dark. I was reading Stephen King at eight.

JC: I liked V.C. Andrews.

NH: Flowers in the Attic. No, I like the creepy shit.

JC: Like Goosebumps?

NH: No. Stephen King. Goosebumps was for dorks.

JC: I was a child.

NH: I was a child, too. My mom would be like, ‘Why do you want this book?’ She trusted me. Luckily, my parents bought me a lot of books. I remember getting into a fight with my mom. She was like, ‘Why can't we go to the library?’ Because I want to touch it.

JC: Oh, I love it. You want to write in it.

NH: Yeah, and I don't want to give it back.

JC: Me too. I love books. The public library was free, and there was one right by my school, so I loved going there. You’re right. It is a form of escapism. I would just sit in the living room [or] in my room. God. I was a good kid. I think we were good kids.

NH: Me too. But my dad knew because he gave me the real fairy tales. Like the Grimms’ Fairy Tales. The dark ones. I was like, Sleeping Beauty is kind of a hoe. It was filled with crazy stuff. I was always attracted to that.

JC: She’s a hoe?

NH: Yeah. Because [most kids] got the Disney version. Also, my mom is a strong personality, but so am I. So that was quite the struggle. My father has a quiet elegance. [He’s a] Texas Southern gentleman.

JC: You should take more of his attributes.

NH: Rude. It felt tough, but I knew that I was being built to be strong. I knew that I already was strong. One of my earliest memories is me having my own opinion, and someone trying to change it, and me not changing it. I am who I am. Take it or leave it. [I have] an unwillingness to settle. All of that was bred. Then I had brothers. My older brother used to pay me. He was in the fifth grade, and I was in the first grade. All through high school, he would pay me to do his homework. He would pay me his candy.

JC: Wow. Do your parents know that?

NH: No.

JC: Okay, cool. Now they do.

NH: But my mind was always working overtime. That was my life, but [I was] also scared to be an actor. At church, I did the announcements. And [I was] living in these two worlds. I went to a white Catholic school, but then it was the black church, and my whole family was black. So my identity [felt torn]. I don't know if you felt that being Korean.

JC: Oh, yeah. Totally.

NAVIGATING IDENTITY

NH: [I felt like I was] being pulled in two different directions. Lowell had a large Asian population.

JC: A large Asian population, sure. But then once you go outside of that, you're like, ‘Oh, the world isn’t like this.’

NH: Yeah, and for me, we had 340 people in my class. Five of us were black.

JC: I had 1,000, so about 80% are Asian. Right, so that’s different.

NH: Yeah, so I really felt a lot in the sense of not belonging and, sort of, faking like I was. So, that's why when we come back to this relationship, it’s so interesting that we found each other in realness. It took a long time for me not to be a people pleaser.

JC: Or me! I think what I learned from you… That's interesting. We are both people pleasers, but you taught me, ‘No, if you want to say no, just say no. You don't have to do it.’ I was like, ‘I don’t have to do it. That's a good [point].’ You taught me how to find my voice, not [having] to please everyone.

NH: Yeah. You don’t have to do it all.

JC: Which is funny you said that. Because maybe that was your journey.

NH: I had to learn that. Even with the CycleHouse and feeling these feelings—like maybe I don't want to be here. But I couldn't even say that [to myself]. And then a pandemic is what got me to the place that I am. But I always put myself in these leadership positions where I could pretend. When I look at it now, [I realize I was putting myself in positions] where I could pretend. So, it was hard when I went to grad school. I was lucky enough to get in to NYU.

JC: How many people? 17 people?

NH: 16 people. That's insane.

JC: But then for you to also know what you wanted to do is fascinating.

NH: But I didn't until college. I was fighting it because black girls weren't actresses. When I grew up, it was Halle Berry and the mom on the Cosby Show.

JC: I had a similar [experience]. I had Michelle Yeoh.

NH: Of course, there were more. But in my world, in terms of what I saw.... What I remember seeing is the mom on the Cosby Show and the little kids and Halle Berry movies. But there weren't a bunch of black women on TV. So, to me, acting felt like cheerleading. Even though it kept finding me. I did plays in high schools, but it [felt] like, ‘Oh, this is just this thing that I do for fun because I'm loud.’ In college, we had a guest director who was like, ‘What are you going to do in graduate [school]?’ And I was like, ‘I don’t know.’

JC: What was your undergrad?

NH: Well, I'm a nerd, so I don't want to sound like a brat.

JC: Just say it.

NH: I have a degree in dramatic art, English honors, and a minor in African-American studies.

JC: English honors. My grammar is trash.

NH: It wasn't grammar. It was reading. It was literature.

JC: Still. I mean, philosophy is so boring to me.

NH: I wrote my thesis on William Faulkner's The Sound and the Fury. The effects of Dilsey as a mammy figure in American fiction. 70 pages. Which ‘Sinners’ brings it back to that, like a current movie of the bigger woman who can't be seen as a sexual figure. That’s why ‘Sinners’ was such a big deal. What is [the name of Wunmi Mosaku]’s character? Ashley [Madekwe]’s friend.

JC: That’s my friend, also.

NH: Yeah. Wunmi. I actually wrote my thesis about this — how the black woman is desexualized based on the fact that she's not this sort of socially accepted figure. And I think a lot of that was in me with my career and everything because I'm not super skinny or all of these things. There's this desexualization that goes on. So they can be the mammy figure or the teacher, but they can't be the lover. They can't be the sexually desired [one]. This is a big part of black culture. It's called a mammy figure. So all of the slaves that were the nursemaids, that were the cooks. … This whole idea of the beautiful people are in the house, and the less attractive people were out in the field. For Wunmi to play that character…

JC: Wunmi is like the hottest person I know.

NH: But I'm saying—for a darker skin, fuller, figured black woman to be a love interest to a stud like Michael B. Jordan…

JC: I didn’t know that. See, I learn something from her every day.

NH: Instinctually, for any of us watching, because we've been so indoctrinated with this bullshit of what femininity is or isn't. It broke through that entire barrier. I don’t know how we got on this to start. But this movie is showing us so many things which is so much of what I've studied, which is why the movie was so important to me. … But I say all that to say as a Black woman and your career and what you think is possible, what you think is impossible… The main reason that I'm an actor now is obviously at the heart of an artist. But I want to be able to show other young—I’m going to cry—women, any ethnicity, particularly black women, and it filters out from there, obviously, my Asian sisters, being from San Francisco and having you… But to show women [we can do it]. This is why representation matters. Because I fought it for so long, and I was so lucky when I was graduating from college to have a teacher who was like, ‘No, you're an actor,' and was able to audition for NYU in a week. I got that shit and got it done in a week. That changed my life. That's why I want to do it—to expose these little girls who are sitting at home watching TV, thinking there's one job, and I see millions of black women. There is opportunity. There are so many opportunities for you to shine. You can be whatever you want. That’s why what’s going on in the world is so scary today, because they're trying to stifle what we all know to be true, which is that you can do and be anything that you want to be. But you have to have exposure to it. And representation matters. The reason we do what we do—a big part of it, yes, it’s inside us—but to expose to other young men, women, particularly minorities, that there is opportunity and space for you in the world. Even if you’re an artist.

JC: And also to tell your version of the story. Not to tell a watered-down version of what they think an Asian American experiences.

NH: Or Harriet Tubman.

JC: I mean, come on. Yeah, they are finding the voices, but it still feels like an uphill battle, regardless of all the progress that we've made. Even when you do make progress, a great example is seeing the industry tearing down or trying to take that away, you know?

NH: This is making me think we should bring back my idea where we play sisters, where one of us is adopted. Remember that idea I had?

JC: Yeah, the sisters. I mean, we are sisters. But it's interesting, because a lot of the things that you’re saying, I can totally piggyback and say, ‘That was my experience too.’

THE ACTING BUG

JC: Why did it take me so long to come out [to Los Angeles] after graduating? [I was in college at University of California, Riverside studying] economics and business, and then secretly doing auditions on the side when I moved to L.A. [I was] working at Cynthia Rowley and taking on all these extra part-time jobs, [between] auditioning. You went the grad school route, and Bryan went to NYU, and those are people who took a shot at [it]. Like, ‘Yeah, I want the real training.’

NH: Honestly, I never thought that I'd get in, too.

JC: I mean, that's insane. That's prestigious, the grad program that she got into at NYU. And knowing that's what you wanted to do. I was just kind of like, ‘Well, let's just see what happens.’ But it was a fight. Being a fucking extra on ‘Entourage’ and ‘Rush Hour 3.’

NH: But that was your grad school. It was a different version.

JC: I learned on set.

NH: You had the on-the-job training, whereas my first sudden audition, coming out, I was like, {says theatrically} ’I’m a theatre actress.’

JC: Yeah, [we were] learning the ropes ways, and I think it's a bit of a grittier way, but it really requires perseverance. Especially the way this industry is changing now. You really have to fucking love it to keep going. I think it is harder for the younger kids getting into it with all the education—

NH: I mean, it’s harder for us with all of the [change and] with everything going on.

JC: But, again, it doesn’t really matter. Because I still love doing it.

NH: It doesn’t matter because guess what? It’s what we are.

JC: It’s what we love.

NH: It’s who we are. Frankly, I tried when I was a kid [to ignore this part of myself], and I tried again with CycleHouse—even though there’s a level of performing. I was like, ‘No, it's cool.’ And it was never about popularity because I was popular. I got invited to every single freaking party as the woman who was training all of these people. It was never about the parties. It's inside of us. It's like what's going on right now. You can do whatever you want, but you cannot change who people are. … We are artists, and it doesn't matter how many years away [you are between jobs], I'm a testament to it—how much time you try to spend away, how much money you make doing something else. I’m happiest struggling to have the opportunity to do that thing.

JC: But also, I just love even the auditions. It's so creative, and it's so powerful.

NH: It’s a whole different skill. Auditioning is not acting.

JC: It’s a different skill. But no, some of it is acting. It’s a short clip of it, and it's not the clip that you would pick, but that's the challenge of it.

NH: It becomes like a game.

JC: It’s fun, and I still get a lot of creative satisfaction [out of it]. I think there are a lot of projects out there, and all the projects that you love, all the indie projects, they don't pay. You lose money doing it, but you still love doing it, you know? Wow, that was a long tangent.

WHAT’S NEXT

NH: What do you hope to accomplish personally and professionally?

JC: Oh gosh, I just want to be happy. I think it's keeping the joy in what you do. That's what I want to continue to accomplish. The joy would be to continue to tell stories that are meaningful to me. But sometimes you take the jobs that aren't as meaningful.

NH: To pay the bills.

JC: To pay the bills. Network [television]. But hey, that pays the bills. I want to keep loving it. I've worked with great directors who are crème de la crème and rising stars, the ones who are just starting, but they have a real vision. Those are the people who I want to continue to work with because they still have the joy. I just want to work with people who still fucking love it. There are some people in this industry who don't love it. I’m like, ‘Then why are you doing it? Let someone else who fucking loves it do it.’ I love being on set. I love meeting people. I love learning everyone else's craft—whether it's lighting or fucking grips. I just love the whole process of it and all the people in the artistry who are required to bring something to life. It is an uphill battle, but I would say [I would love] to continue to work with upcoming directors who have a strong vision who will not be swayed by unartistic producers and soul-crushing studios. I just want people who still just love the art, and that's in its simplest form. What about you?

NH: Well, professionally, I just really want the opportunity to deeply delve into a character. So, whether that's a show or movies or a bunch of different ones of those, I want to be like that actor who finishes one thing, goes to the next thing. I want to be able to create a canon of work that I'm proud of. That’s my goal.

JC: But that’s a lifetime goal. It doesn't have to be one after another, though.

NH: But I do want one after another.

JC: Okay. I mean, don’t we all?

NH: I get it. I want that Jon Hamm effect. Or Viola [Davis].  I want to be able to constantly be creating and evolving, mixed with times of great joy—like vacationing and hanging with my friends. I feel like I have half of the puzzle.

JC: But half the puzzle is what people work to achieve. You don’t work to have. You already have that.

NH: 100 percent. That’s my point. I feel like we're getting there. I would like to be in love, I think. I think that it's been a long time for me. The curtain has come down, but I also have high expectations, and I don't want to settle. But I would like to meet a partner. But professionally, the times when I feel most alive is when I’m with the people who I love, who I feel truly love me back for who I am. And when I’m working.

JC: I like working with my friends.

NH: That’s what I’m saying. I like when those things mix together—like when your husband directed a movie. That was such a great time.

JC: No one got paid for that.

NH: But listen, sometimes you get other jobs to pay for that.

JC: I’m proud of him, and I will say this one nice thing about him. He really fought. During times that are slow, he never stops creating. That's what I'm proud of. Because do you know how hard it is to make a movie and to fight for that vision? It's terrible. And then calling in favors. Then, friends who usually don't take jobs just to take jobs — seeing something in the writing and then bringing it to life? That was such a fun experience because all our friends—

NH: I’m going to tell Bryan in the middle of our interview. You’re talking about how proud you are.

JC: I tell him that all the time.

NH: I know you do.

JC: Not all the time. Just when I feel like it.

NH: Personally and professionally—for myself in particular—I want to find a seminal character. Someone I can sink my teeth into. I think it's a series or even a limited series. Also, I'm so excited about a movie like ‘Sinners’ because I've always been in love with this genre of the South. I've always loved it. I mean, all Black people come from the South. I spent my summers in South Carolina. My daddy's from Texas. My mom’s father's from Texas. And I was so inspired by someone finally talking about not just Black people as slaves or Black people in the Black Panther movement in civil rights. But Black people living their experiences in a place, having to overcome Jim Crow, where people truly understood that they didn't have anything. The whole basis of that movie is that, as a culture, there was no way to survive. You could not survive if you were black in that time, and the acknowledgement of that, and how far black people have come. So I would love to work more in that vein. … I love that a movie like that sort of cracked that open at the surface. I'm excited to see how that inspires [future filmmaking] and where that goes. Because for me, as an African-American Studies major at [UC] Berkeley, it was a time that I studied a lot, and a reason why black people are the strong, resilient, survivalistic people that you see today. That was 1932. We had a black president by 2008. Whenever black people doubt their resiliency, or people say, ‘You can't make it.’ I say to black people all the time, ‘Do you understand what we did as a people?’ And I think that needs to be shown more. I’m sick of the slave movies. We all know black people were in chains, and they beat the shit out of us, and we got raped, and all these horrible things happened. But look at where we are now, and the most influential time that happened was in those years. So, I want to see more of that. I love that it was told in an interesting, palatable way, and I love that my white friends who don't know are calling and asking questions, and I explain what happened. I love this opportunity to educate through art. I want to have the opportunity to help educate through art as well.

JC: I felt like I did that with ‘Lovecraft Country.’ The reason why they had to do it from a sci-fi element was to make it palatable for the other audiences.

LOVECRAFT COUNTRY

JC: It was a book, but [author] H.P. Lovecraft was a fucking racist. So, for Misha Green to take that and reclaim it and make it her own, that was incredible.

NH: I actually had this conversation. Was it with you? Sinners did what Lovecraft tried to do.

JC: But they hit a larger audience, right?

NH: It's not about the audience. It's about the execution as well. It’s not just the audience. It found its audience because it's beautifully executed. So I think that the problem—which was not Misha or any of the actors or any of that… I actually had this conversation yesterday. So with Lovecraft, there are all of these monsters and all of this stuff coming on. Whereas with Sinners, there's a vampire. You can wrap your head around that. Whereas when you're watching Lovecraft, there's this amoeba, and you keep breaking the wall in terms of time. There was just too much for people to take in. Whereas with a movie like Sinners, they're vampires, black people, that's it. So, that's not the fault of anybody involved. Lovecraft was beautiful. It was just so many elements, and too much jumping around. The characters kept changing. The location kept changing. And the time kept changing.

JC: You know why they did that? It’s because you know you may not get a season two, and you want to tell as many stories as possible. She left nothing on the table. That was the point.

NH: It’s a little bit of a blessing. And a curse. Because it's just too much. You're throwing the whole kitchen sink in there, and people are like, ‘Whoa, I just need the cake. I don't need the drinks and the appetizer and the entree.’

JC: But you're talking about this hundred-year period and gap, that's exactly what she tackled. And I think it is beautiful.

NH: But I think that that's the problem with ‘Lovecraft.’ You only have a couple of episodes, and you’re like, ‘Wait, where are we? What's going on? What's happening?’

JC: But what I do love about it is…. Because she knew the way the studio worked, and they are unforgiving. She made sure nothing was left on the table.

NH: But babe, 8,000 trillion other things happened, and it jumped timelines.

JC: But I loved that. You just treat every episode like its own little movie.

NH: But justice for Lovecraft, that’s all I have to say!

JC: Thank you.

NH: I know. That’s all you wanted me to say.

JC: But guess what? Lovecraft walked so Sinners could run.

NH: How’s that?

JC: Thank you. That’s great. That’s a great way to end it.

NH: I want to do more shit like Lovecraft. Because that was one of the best jobs.